I'm skeptical of the range numbers [efficiency, charging speed discussions]

[Screen Protech]

Seems like the estimated range is always over exaggerated.

 

[WrenchMagnate]

I have actually been researching this morning. If you want to see the possibilities, check out Quantumscape's website and YouTube videos.

Quantumscape has a licensing agreement with VW's PowerCo division. QS seems to be working with PowerCo on developing production lines for their super-thin form factor SOLID STATE batteries.

So if the timing is right, Scout can pack plenty of KWh into a smaller space, with a lighter pack and 15-minute 10-80% charge times.

Battery technology is advancing rapidly!

 

[Chuckles]

I have actually been researching this morning. If you want to see the possibilities, check out Quantumscape's website and YouTube videos.

Quantumscape has a licensing agreement with VW's PowerCo division. QS seems to be working with PowerCo on developing production lines for their super-thin form factor SOLID STATE batteries.

So if the timing is right, Scout can pack plenty of KWh into a smaller space, with a lighter pack and 15-minute 10-80% charge times.

Battery technology is advancing rapidly!

Solid state likely won't be ready for mass production in 2 years. It's always "5 years away". It's tantalizing tech for sure. It will speed up EV adoption. Lots of companies are working on solid state like Hyundai and Toyota.

 

[WrenchMagnate]

Solid state likely won't be ready for mass production in 2 years. It's always "5 years away". It's tantalizing tech for sure. It will speed up EV adoption. Lots of companies are working on solid state like Hyundai and Toyota.

It is certainly interesting to watch!

 

[maynard]

Solid state likely won't be ready for mass production in 2 years. It's always "5 years away". It's tantalizing tech for sure. It will speed up EV adoption. Lots of companies are working on solid state like Hyundai and Toyota.

At some point the '5 years away' has to become reality! One can hope...

 

[Mousehunter]

We can hope - but even if solid state is hitting the road by 2027, it is somewhat doubtful it will be in full production by then. Add to that, if it lives up to the hype, it will probably be introduced into higher margin products first.

I really hope they will be realistically close to the published range, and that getting that range will not be a costly upgrade. I kind of suspect they are looking at a crystal ball right now - trying to guess what prices, capacity, weight, etc will be by the time they are ready for vehicles to be rolling off the production line. I hope the all those factors work out to get the vehicle we want for the price we can afford. And I really hope that when 2027 comes around, we will not be second guessing if we really should wait till 2030...

 

[joewilk45]

Here's the elephant in the room the larger the gas tank for range extender the more range correct ?? So maybe that's the road they go down. But honestly I think by the time they are ready to roll in South Carolina the battery tech will be better than what it is today. I guess David Bowie was ahead of his time when he released 5 yrs

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

They'll offer an option with the 350 mile range. It might not have 35" knobby tires or anything on the roof, and will probably have a ground clearance closer to 9" than 12".

The battery chemistry will have minimal impact on range. It's all about the air resistance and rolling resistance. The battery chemistry is about how much energy can be stored in a volume or mass, how quickly the battery can be charged (and discharged), its performance--especially in the cold, and its lifetime. Yeah, it might be a bit lighter, but that won't have a large impact on range.

The Lucid Gravity weighs about the same as the Ford Lightning. The Gravity has a 120 kWh battery, the Lightning ER has 131 kWh. The Gravity gets 450 miles EPA range. The Lightning gets 320 miles.

Scout will be able to fit enough kWh into both the Terra and Traveler to meet their range requirements. The question will be cost and whether the 350 mile range is standard or a higher cost option.

 

[NukeDukem]

They'll offer an option with the 350 mile range. It might not have 35" knobby tires or anything on the roof, and will probably have a ground clearance closer to 9" than 12".

The battery chemistry will have minimal impact on range. It's all about the air resistance and rolling resistance. The battery chemistry is about how much energy can be stored in a volume or mass, how quickly the battery can be charged (and discharged), its performance--especially in the cold, and its lifetime. Yeah, it might be a bit lighter, but that won't have a large impact on range.

The Lucid Gravity weighs about the same as the Ford Lightning. The Gravity has a 120 kWh battery, the Lightning ER has 131 kWh. The Gravity gets 450 miles EPA range. The Lightning gets 320 miles.

Scout will be able to fit enough kWh into both the Terra and Traveler to meet their range requirements. The question will be cost and whether the 350 mile range is standard or a higher cost option.

This makes sense

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

This makes sense

Note: If they want to offer a premium-priced vehicle, they may decide to go to 500 miles range with an extra large battery. This is where battery chemistry will come into play. A very high density (kWh/m^3) and specific energy (kWh/kg) would allow them to put an even higher capacity battery into the vehicle. If they offer this, expect the vehicle to be priced at $100k+. Such a battery capacity will have to be around 250 kWh. And nobody will be happy with it because 250 kWh charging at an average of 180 kW will be frustratingly slow.

But for 350 miles range, an NMC or LFP battery will do the job and the price won't be much more than what we've come to expect of luxury EV SUvs and Pickups.

 

[NukeDukem]

Note: If they want to offer a premium-priced vehicle, they may decide to go to 500 miles range with an extra large battery. This is where battery chemistry will come into play. A very high density (kWh/m^3) and specific energy (kWh/kg) would allow them to put an even higher capacity battery into the vehicle. If they offer this, expect the vehicle to be priced at $100k+. Such a battery capacity will have to be around 250 kWh. And nobody will be happy with it because 250 kWh charging at an average of 180 kW will be frustratingly slow.

But for 350 miles range, an NMC or LFP battery will do the job and the price won't be much more than what we've come to expect of luxury EV SUvs and Pickups.

Any chance that they may be able to use solid state batteries for the builds in 2027?

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Any chance that they may be able to use solid state batteries for the builds in 2027?

There's always a very slim chance, but I wouldn't count on it. They have to build to what's available for production today. Battery technology that's in testing is always several years out from being put into a vehicle. Even semi-solid state batteries are just barely making it into BEVs and that technology has been well-understood for 15 years. The 2009 Hyundai Sonata hybrid had a semi-solid state battery (really, semi-solid just means a gel electrolyte instead of liquid electrolyte), but it's just barely reaching BEV scalability and reliability.

The US-based QuantumScape seems to be moving forward and the joint venture with VW is promising, but they have only just (Q3 2024) produced a sample cell that works for basic testing at room temperature, and that's not in production, just very small batch manufacturing. IMO, they're at least five years from putting a full-sized battery in a test vehicle. That won't be a production-ready scalability of the design, which is quite a bit further in the future.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/solid-state-battery-production-challenges

 

[Goose]

Note: If they want to offer a premium-priced vehicle, they may decide to go to 500 miles range with an extra large battery. This is where battery chemistry will come into play. A very high density (kWh/m^3) and specific energy (kWh/kg) would allow them to put an even higher capacity battery into the vehicle. If they offer this, expect the vehicle to be priced at $100k+. Such a battery capacity will have to be around 250 kWh. And nobody will be happy with it because 250 kWh charging at an average of 180 kW will be frustratingly slow.

But for 350 miles range, an NMC or LFP battery will do the job and the price won't be much more than what we've come to expect of luxury EV SUvs and Pickups.

If it's an 800v system then it can charge well over 300kW. Look at the Porsche Taycan, holds over 300kW up to about 60% SOC.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

If it's an 800v system then it can charge well over 300kW. Look at the Porsche Taycan, holds over 300kW up to about 60% SOC.

I'm not seeing anything close to 300kW for 60% of the battery in any of those plots. A peak rate is vastly different from the average rate.

The Porsche Maycan peak rate (and even its sustained for 15-40% rate) is impressive, no doubt. But its 0%-80% or 15%-80% or 25%-80% is not anywhere near 300 kW. It's closer to 197 kW, averaged from 0% to 80%. And don't forget that's with a 100 kWh battery, so it has much less time at those sustained rates for heat to build up. A larger battery is going to have to throttle power after some time or have a very different cooling strategy during charging.

I'll concede the Scout might have an average rate of probably not much more than 200 kW for perfect charging conditions, which will be seen only rarely on 350 kW EA chargers and V4 T chargers. There are a total of 249 charging locations claiming 350kW capability in the entire US, according to PlugShare. I wouldn't count on the number of those increasing by orders of magnitude by the time the Scout is released. The Scout is going to be charging on 150 kW EA and 250 kW brand-T chargers for most of its charging use in the first few years.

The time to charge from 25% to 80% of a large battery with 250 kWh at an average of 200 kW is still 42 minutes. If Scout can reach the Hummer's impressive 250 kW average, then we're looking at sub-35 minutes for a 25%-80% charge. On slower chargers, it'll be closer to 45-50 minutes.

That's for my wildly-hypothetical 500 mile range BEV Scout.

For the anticipated 350 mile range Scout, with a 140-175 kWh battery, the charge time (25% to 80%) will be much better (23 to 29 minutes), assuming a 200 kW charge power.

 

[Goose]

You're looking at the old model, the 2025 Taycan has a new pouch style cell with a new thermal management system. This is another brand under the VW umbrella using modern battery technology, we will see what the future holds. The Macan does NOT use these same cells.