Range extender versus standard gas engine - what can be omitted?

[blmtnc]

To me I absolutely disdain BEVs. Every vehicle should be a Hybrid/Flex Fuel Vehicle. ICE Engines are awfully clean, but they are already set to run on Methanol or Ethanol or any combo of the two and or gasoline. But the best part of Methanol is it is made from carbon capture technology. So you are actully carbon negative in a regular ICE vehicle running Methanol. We could be off fossil fuels at month end. But we lack the courage. Elon showed EV's can be fun, and fast as hell for the money. I mean you need a million dollars to beat the Plaid S in the Quarter. That's you're template. Now ditch the "Frunk!" and put in a high revving I6 in there and you bring back the passion of the engine noise, you end the range debate and fears, you never plug it in and every mile you drive sequestures carbon. By jacking with BEVs you are hurting the situation not helping.

Problem with ethanol is that it's endothermic, taking more energy to produce per unit volume than it provides. At least corn based ethanol here in the US is. Brazil figured it out with sugar cane and their processes and I believe they're at a point where it's a net positive energy content proposition, but not here.

 

[rivianwho]

To me I absolutely disdain BEVs. Every vehicle should be a Hybrid/Flex Fuel Vehicle. ICE Engines are awfully clean, but they are already set to run on Methanol or Ethanol or any combo of the two and or gasoline. But the best part of Methanol is it is made from carbon capture technology. So you are actully carbon negative in a regular ICE vehicle running Methanol. We could be off fossil fuels at month end. But we lack the courage. Elon showed EV's can be fun, and fast as hell for the money. I mean you need a million dollars to beat the Plaid S in the Quarter. That's you're template. Now ditch the "Frunk!" and put in a high revving I6 in there and you bring back the passion of the engine noise, you end the range debate and fears, you never plug it in and every mile you drive sequestures carbon. By jacking with BEVs you are hurting the situation not helping.

Ethanol, commonly used as a biofuel, has several disadvantages:

1. Environmental Concerns:

Greenhouse Gas Emissions: While ethanol combustion produces fewer greenhouse gases than gasoline, its production can result in higher emissions due to soil carbon release, fertilizer usage, and energy-intensive processing.

Land Use Changes: Large-scale ethanol production requires significant agricultural land, potentially leading to deforestation, soil erosion, and reduced soil fertility.

2. Economic and Food Supply Issues:

Food Prices and Availability: Diverting crops like corn for ethanol production can reduce the supply of food-grade corn, potentially increasing food prices and impacting food availability.

3. Engine Compatibility and Performance:

Engine Modifications: Using high ethanol blends (e.g., E85) may require modifications to vehicle engines and fuel systems to prevent damage due to ethanol's corrosive properties.

Fuel Efficiency: Ethanol has a lower energy density than gasoline, which can lead to reduced fuel economy and increased fuel consumption.

4. Energy Efficiency:

Energy Return on Investment (EROI): The energy required to produce ethanol, especially from crops like corn, may approach or even exceed the energy obtained from the fuel, raising questions about its overall energy efficiency.


These factors highlight the complexities and challenges associated with ethanol as a biofuel, suggesting the need for careful consideration of its environmental, economic, and technical impacts.

 

[PMurphy]

I get the argument BUT: looking forward to simplicity of BEV maintenance (no oil/coolant/water pumps/spark plugs/fuel injectors/trans fluids etc). Any vehicle with regen braking will reduce brake jobs (not sure about wheel bearings/diff’s ext elimination?).

There is the issue of battery life that has really has not been adequately addressed yet (mfr vehicle reverb service?). Dealing with electrical/software gremlin’s will be the new headache.

As far as carbon capture/renewable fuel, good in theory BUT way more expensive fuel than good old crude oil.

I am a hydrocarbon addict NOT in recovery (diesel pick ups and V8 daily drivers) but want to try a BEV. The Scout combo of design/promised(?) engineering and performance flipped the EV switch for me. Time will tell for all of us RE Scout PS: hybrids are a good definitely another interesting option (performance and fuel economy).

 

[anthonypape]

Ethanol, commonly used as a biofuel, has several disadvantages:

1. Environmental Concerns:

Greenhouse Gas Emissions: While ethanol combustion produces fewer greenhouse gases than gasoline, its production can result in higher emissions due to soil carbon release, fertilizer usage, and energy-intensive processing.

Land Use Changes: Large-scale ethanol production requires significant agricultural land, potentially leading to deforestation, soil erosion, and reduced soil fertility.

2. Economic and Food Supply Issues:

Food Prices and Availability: Diverting crops like corn for ethanol production can reduce the supply of food-grade corn, potentially increasing food prices and impacting food availability.

3. Engine Compatibility and Performance:

Engine Modifications: Using high ethanol blends (e.g., E85) may require modifications to vehicle engines and fuel systems to prevent damage due to ethanol's corrosive properties.

Fuel Efficiency: Ethanol has a lower energy density than gasoline, which can lead to reduced fuel economy and increased fuel consumption.

4. Energy Efficiency:

Energy Return on Investment (EROI): The energy required to produce ethanol, especially from crops like corn, may approach or even exceed the energy obtained from the fuel, raising questions about its overall energy efficiency.


These factors highlight the complexities and challenges associated with ethanol as a biofuel, suggesting the need for careful consideration of its environmental, economic, and technical impacts.

Agreed. But that’s Ethanol and why I spoke of Methanol. The only thing about Ethanol is that it is better than gasoline and it’s renewable. It makes up roughly 15% of all gasoline today.

 

[rivianwho]

Agreed. But that’s Ethanol and why I spoke of Methanol. The only thing about Ethanol is that it is better than gasoline and it’s renewable. It makes up roughly 15% of all gasoline today.

Since you said we could be off fossil fuels in a month via carbon capture based methanol production, please elaborate how that would happen, since it requires hydrogen production and we (America) have no nationwide hydrogen production scale, but if we did, then we could just use hydrogen fuel cells anyway. See Nikola FCEV for details.

 

[MannyG20]

If we have to do all that maintenance, then just forgo the generator. Give two options: full EV or gas. That would probably be the most economical, right?

I was sold on the range extender, I’m not a fan of full EV. I could / would keep my reservation for an all gas option. But if Scout goes the Rivian route, I’m out… Unfortunately.

What is the Rivian route?

 

[rfk]

We've got Grand Highlander FHEV that we'll keep forever. Scout BEV will replace Volvo ICE in a few years. So will be able to flex between hybrid and electric, no more pure ICE for us.

Beyond that, perhaps EREV depending on market, infrastructure, etc. but that's (hopefully) 2030+ for us.

 

[maynard]

To me I absolutely disdain BEVs. Every vehicle should be a Hybrid/Flex Fuel Vehicle. ICE Engines are awfully clean, but they are already set to run on Methanol or Ethanol or any combo of the two and or gasoline. But the best part of Methanol is it is made from carbon capture technology. So you are actully carbon negative in a regular ICE vehicle running Methanol. We could be off fossil fuels at month end. But we lack the courage. Elon showed EV's can be fun, and fast as hell for the money. I mean you need a million dollars to beat the Plaid S in the Quarter. That's you're template. Now ditch the "Frunk!" and put in a high revving I6 in there and you bring back the passion of the engine noise, you end the range debate and fears, you never plug it in and every mile you drive sequestures carbon. By jacking with BEVs you are hurting the situation not helping.

That sounds a lot like the ramcharger...

 

[Flyinglow]

We have a Volt that runs on battery most of the time. The gas engine still takes maintenance and the intervals are surprisingly short. All you are really eliminating with the range extender compared to an ICE truck is the transmission and drive shaft. And you add a generator since the range extender doesn't mechanically connect to the electric motor on the rear axle - although, if the generator is brushless, its maintenance will be minimal.

Apparently, the Harvester range extender reduces the towing capacity to 5k lbs. Not sure what the payload reduction is but it is probably less than the BEV since all that weight is hung behind the rear axle.

What no one talks about is that the bigger battery in the BEV versions means that you can "make more money" from your electric utility when V2G becomes available (V2G means the bi-directional charger will operate when the grid power is still on - much like a solar system would). Where I live, I estimate I can "make" between 5 and 8 thousand dollars a year selling the vehicle's battery power to the grid (with the Chevy Silverado EV 170 or 212 kWh battery and depending on the kW the bi-directional charger sends to the house). These trucks are expensive and V2G is a way to offset much of the cost.

I think the range extender hype for the Scout and RAM Ramcharger is overblown. I will stick to pure electric.

 

[slimisjim]

How are you expecting to make money from V2G with a BEV? Charge your vehicle at your buddy’s house and then sell it at yours?

 

[alexquintana760]

Don't be fearful of the maintenance requirements of the range extender. If you operate the vehicle in pure EV mode 80% of the time, you've extended by a factor of 5 the service intervals (based on total vehicle miles) of the engine compared with the same engine in an ICE application. I think EREVs generally make more sense for most people IF you can charge at home, and use it like a BEV 80% of the time or more. And even the Ramcharger has passed full towing certification in all operating modes, so no performance compromises if that's a goal. In Scout's case they are prioritizing efficiency over maximum performance in all modes.

100% agree

 

[colinnwn]

How are you expecting to make money from V2G with a BEV? Charge your vehicle at your buddy’s house and then sell it at yours?

Some states are allowing V2G supporting cars to join virtual power plants where the cars can send power to the grid when the frequency is sagging or there is a load emergency which tends to go hand in hand. Some of these events can pay a lot depending on the need - like $9.00 per kwh delivered.

But reliably being able to earn thousands a year in a virtual power plant that is up and ready to join today with any V2G car, I haven't heard of a particular state. I'd think maybe Hawaii?

Oh I see he is in CA. Will have to look into that.

 

[TwoJacks]

Well, unless you had a field of solar panels or a bank of batteries those solar panels kept fully charged, it would take you a helluva lot of days (weeks?) to *fill up* your BEV from the usual number of home solar panels considering the output of solar panels vs the size of the Scout BEV battery pack.

In an emergency I wouldn’t need to fill up the EV. Would just need enough to get by. I’ll have two or maybe three Franklin wall batteries plus a fairly large ground installed panel setup so it should be no problem either using excess solar or some battery to keep the EV topped up or add 20% or more capacity per day. All depends how much sun there is and how much I need for the house. Either way, I won’t be sitting in line at the gas station. Yes, couldn’t the same with the EREV, but at least with the BEV I’d have the option to top it off over a week if we have to escape over a longer distance. I never used to think this way before things went crazy.

 

[TwoJacks]

Ethanol, commonly used as a biofuel, has several disadvantages:

1. Environmental Concerns:

Greenhouse Gas Emissions: While ethanol combustion produces fewer greenhouse gases than gasoline, its production can result in higher emissions due to soil carbon release, fertilizer usage, and energy-intensive processing.

Land Use Changes: Large-scale ethanol production requires significant agricultural land, potentially leading to deforestation, soil erosion, and reduced soil fertility.

2. Economic and Food Supply Issues:

Food Prices and Availability: Diverting crops like corn for ethanol production can reduce the supply of food-grade corn, potentially increasing food prices and impacting food availability.

3. Engine Compatibility and Performance:

Engine Modifications: Using high ethanol blends (e.g., E85) may require modifications to vehicle engines and fuel systems to prevent damage due to ethanol's corrosive properties.

Fuel Efficiency: Ethanol has a lower energy density than gasoline, which can lead to reduced fuel economy and increased fuel consumption.

4. Energy Efficiency:

Energy Return on Investment (EROI): The energy required to produce ethanol, especially from crops like corn, may approach or even exceed the energy obtained from the fuel, raising questions about its overall energy efficiency.


These factors highlight the complexities and challenges associated with ethanol as a biofuel, suggesting the need for careful consideration of its environmental, economic, and technical impacts.

Exactly. Bio fuels have been completely discredited as a solution mainly because of land use. We’d decimate the planet if we went that way. There are certain crops such as camelina that are more interesting as they can grow on scrap land and might not displace food crops or lead to deforestation, but it’s early days for that and research funding is likely to get cut.

 

[smboogie]

My wife has a Tesla EV and I don't want all my mobility under 1 fuel type I like to diversify. When the power went out everyone without gas was screwed for 2+ days. Our water heater was fine (checked pilot) and could cook on stovetop as normal as well as gas BBQ in backyard. People with EV's couldn't' charge from home, even with Solar (unless you have a battery backup). The lines at local charges got crazy b/c everyone was worrying about when the power would get back on.

Also depends on location I would rather be able to, on long trips, not have to stop often for 25-45 mins to get a charge. I've done long trips in the Tesla, it's not bad but over a weekend of driving I calculated over 3 hours spent just sitting and charging or having to make plans to get a charge to make it to the next location. A final reason for the EREV is family has a place where there is no EV charging other than a plug at the house (L1) right now.