LKAS and unencrypted CAN bus for Comma.ai Openpilot

[blmtnc]

The *RIGHT* to repair is just that. The FREEDOM for consumers to choose DIY or not. Supportability and right to repair are not in conflict. See 100 years of DIY shade tree mechanics that didn't void any warranties for details.

Right to repair is also about making OEM parts and repair procedures available to consumers which Rivian et. al. do NOT currently unlless you want to spend the $15k/year plus thousand of dollars in certification training to become a Rivian-certified repair facility. Want a new OEM 12V battery. Sorry, but you'll have to spend the $800 for a Rivian Service Center to replace your 12V battery if you can wait the weeks (months?) for a service appointment.

Denying right to repair is about controlling the OEM parts supply and monetization of the software and services plain and simple which is why Rivian, Tesla, et. al. refuse to support Android Auto and Apple CarPlay and not the BS excuses of *controlling the user experience* especially since their user experiences SUCK!

What really matters is the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE which we do not currently have w/ many EV manufacturers; hopefully, Scout's pledge of 80% of repairs in your driveway includes DIY shade tree mechanics and not just Scout Motors mobile repair services like Rivian and Tesla.

ICYMI: Proton is a great example of commitment to independent audit of their open source software...

We believe in the power of open source
Proton VPN’s no-logs policy confirmed by an external audit
Proton Pass is open source and audited for security
Proton receives ISO 27001 certification

And part of exercising that freedom is choosing whether to purchase from a given manufacturer if it's a totally closed ecosystem vs. forcing them to dilute product in support of DIY. Which I don't consider installation of non OEM software DIY. So consumers who want to tinker with or replace the provided software can buy from manufacturers who allow that, and the ones who don't need to do that but instead value stability and security of the platform more can choose ones aligned with that approach. But the manufacturers should in no way be forced through regulation or other means to allow modification of software that ships with their vehicles under the guise of right to repair. Read only access to basic diagnostic information to facilitate DIY repair, sure. But software changes, no way.

 

[rivianwho]

And part of exercising that freedom is choosing whether to purchase from a given manufacturer if it's a totally closed ecosystem vs. forcing them to dilute product in support of DIY. Which I don't consider installation of non OEM software DIY. So consumers who want to tinker with or replace the provided software can buy from manufacturers who allow that, and the ones who don't need to do that but instead value stability and security of the platform more can choose ones aligned with that approach. But the manufacturers should in no way be forced through regulation or other means to allow modification of software that ships with their vehicles under the guise of right to repair. Read only access to basic diagnostic information to facilitate DIY repair, sure. But software changes, no way.

Apparently, you misunderstood my post. EVERY manufacturer should ABSOLUTELY be required to make *OEM* parts available to be purchased by owners as well as repair manuals which is NOT the case for more and more manufacturers including the legacy automakers as they have started producing EVs.

Right to repair is about *consumer protection* which is the point of government regulation.

As far as DIY modifications of h/w and/or s/w, that' should also be allowed but w/ no liability of the manufacturer at the DIYer's own risk; i.e. if you root your iPhone and brick it then that's on you; same goes if you want to replace your OEM ACC w/ OpenPilot.

And there is plenty of open software based platforms that are more stable and secure than proprietary equivalents; see Android, Linux, Apache, etc. for details.

Would you trust a *black box* plugged into your computer that you had no incite to how it works? Essentially, that's proprietary s/w.

 

[Ajzride]

I can see where Openpilot would be beneficial for vehicles which do not already have ACC et. al. but why would I want to use it for vehicles (e.g. Rivians) that already have the capability? Is Openpilot supposed to be better than OEMs capabilities? If so, then why wouldn't the OEMs just use it?

Yes, it is leaps and bounds better than almost every other L2 ADAS out there, save Tesla. You can see my comparison to Ford BlueCruise here:

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/thr...ecruise-alternative.19342/page-33#post-421452

Personally, your comment, "...as it reads and writes to the CAN bus in order to control the vehicle" coupled w/ "It's being polished for the Rivian now" which implies my Rivian R1S CAN bus is NOT currently encrypted. Calling all hackers!

PLEASE encrypt the CAN bus!

This is why the EU has mandated cybersecurity protocols for all connected vehicles.

 

[blmtnc]

Apparently, you misunderstood my post. EVERY manufacturer should ABSOLUTELY be required to make *OEM* parts available to be purchased by owners as well as repair manuals which is NOT the case for more and more manufacturers including the legacy automakers as they have started producing EVs.

Right to repair is about *consumer protection* which is the point of government regulation.

As far as DIY modifications of h/w and/or s/w, that' should also be allowed but w/ no liability of the manufacturer at the DIYer's own risk; i.e. if you root your iPhone and brick it then that's on you; same goes if you want to replace your OEM ACC w/ OpenPilot.

And there is plenty of open software based platforms that are more stable and secure than proprietary equivalents; see Android, Linux, Apache, etc. for details.

Would you trust a *black box* plugged into your computer that you had no incite to how it works? Essentially, that's proprietary s/w.

Respectfully disagree on several points:

No company should be required to provide OEM parts or documentation outside its repair network. People who don't want that construct can shop elsewhere. If sales are impacted enough by that approach then different business decisions will be made.

Allowing DIY mods to hardware or software shouldn't be a requirement, again if that's important then shop elsewhere.

Based on the vulnerability data I see with open source vs. proprietary software I don't think one is really superior over the other from that perspective.

And we trust black boxes every day of our lives, with our lives, like literally. Aviation is one industry that immediately comes to mind, defense (weapons systems, communications systems, etc) medical robotics, power utilities, the list goes on. Those systems are tested just like any other software, just by insiders vs. outsiders.

It'll be interesting to see where Scout lands on this. Hopefully it's somewhere where we can both be proud owners.

 

[rivianwho]

Respectfully disagree on several points:

No company should be required to provide OEM parts or documentation outside its repair network. People who don't want that construct can shop elsewhere. If sales are impacted enough by that approach then different business decisions will be made.

Allowing DIY mods to hardware or software shouldn't be a requirement, again if that's important then shop elsewhere.

Based on the vulnerability data I see with open source vs. proprietary software I don't think one is really superior over the other from that perspective.

And we trust black boxes every day of our lives, with our lives, like literally. Aviation is one industry that immediately comes to mind, defense (weapons systems, communications systems, etc) medical robotics, power utilities, the list goes on. Those systems are tested just like any other software, just by insiders vs. outsiders.

It'll be interesting to see where Scout lands on this. Hopefully it's somewhere where we can both be proud owners.

The fatal flaw in your*just choose a different product* logic is that the trend is when ALL the major manufacturers adopt the same practices and there becomes little if any other choices. It's already happening with EVs even with legacy automakers.

We definitely will have to agree to disagree if you think getting locked into a proprietary h/w and s/w is better than FREEDOM to DIY.

 

[Ajzride]

The fatal flaw in your*just choose a different product* logic is that the trend is when ALL the major manufacturers adopt the same practices and there becomes little if any other choices. It's already happening with EVs even with legacy automakers.

To emphasise your point, this has already happened to American's farmers. Anyone can go google John Deere Right to Repair and see what all comes up.